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Concerns about the developers of Lemmy #885

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opened 2024-05-30 09:19:24 +02:00 by aylamz · 5 comments

aylamz commented

2024-05-30 09:19:24 +02:00

Lemmy is developed by "tankies". Here's all the information I've found about it so far:

https://web.archive.org/web/20230603001819/https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379

https://web.archive.org/web/20230610215117/https://raddle.me/f/TankiesGonnaTank/89852/the-lemmy-ml-admin-is-banning-anyone-that-mentions-stalin-or

https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r

https://raddle.me/f/lobby/159606/-/comment/294792

The two main developers use a picture of Che Guevara and Fidel Castro as their profile pictures. (Dessalines also uses a picture of Mao Zedong as banner for his Lemmy profile)

join-lemmy.org lists lemmygrad.ml, which is a tankie instance.

dessalines, one of the developers of Lemmy, has a repository on GitHub called "essays", which contains a bunch of tankie shit: Soviet Union, China, etc apologia and other ahistorical bullshit.
https://github.com/dessalines/essays

u/parentis_shotgun, a Reddit account of dessalines, is/was active on r/communism and r/DebateCommunism on Reddit, which are tankie subreddits.

Genocide denial:

"The Uyghur genocide is as real as white genocide." - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/r/MapPorn/comments/xq49ct/deleted_by_user/iq954mu/

Whatever this is:

"So you don't think the KGB or soviet intelligence during ww2 was a good thing? You realize AES needs police, army, and intelligence services right?" - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/r/RedshirtsUnite/comments/xhla0t/the_silent_protector/ioz2yc6/

Self-indentifies as tankie and endorses Lemmygrad:

"I'm a vegan tankie, and r/communism is trash. Most of us moved to lemmygrad." - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/r/VeganForCircleJerkers/comments/vyekft/got_banned_from_rcommunism_for_calling_out_a_mod/ig41cg9/

"Oh great so this is just another anarcho-liberal anti-tankie sub." - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/user/parentis_shotgun?sort=&t=&after=t1_ir3cbm6

Supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine:

"(...) And guess what, that communist party fully supports this invasion for genuine anti-imperialist reasons." - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/user/parentis_shotgun?sort=&t=&after=t1_ikq8ckv

The reason I'm bringing this up: Disroot donates some of the donations it gets to the FOSS projects it uses. While I have not as of right now yet donated any money to Disroot, I am definitely NOT donating in the future, if any of that money goes to Lemmy. Ideally I would like Disroot to stop using and promoting Lemmy as well.

**Lemmy is developed by "tankies". Here's all the information I've found about it so far:** https://web.archive.org/web/20230603001819/https://mstdn.social/@feditips/106835057054633379 https://web.archive.org/web/20230610215117/https://raddle.me/f/TankiesGonnaTank/89852/the-lemmy-ml-admin-is-banning-anyone-that-mentions-stalin-or https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r https://raddle.me/f/lobby/159606/-/comment/294792 The two main developers use a picture of Che Guevara and Fidel Castro as their profile pictures. (Dessalines also uses a picture of Mao Zedong as banner for his Lemmy profile) join-lemmy.org lists lemmygrad.ml, which is a tankie instance. dessalines, one of the developers of Lemmy, has a repository on GitHub called "essays", which contains a bunch of tankie shit: Soviet Union, China, etc apologia and other ahistorical bullshit. https://github.com/dessalines/essays u/parentis_shotgun, a Reddit account of dessalines, is/was active on r/communism and r/DebateCommunism on Reddit, which are tankie subreddits. ### Genocide denial: "The Uyghur genocide is as real as white genocide." - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/r/MapPorn/comments/xq49ct/deleted_by_user/iq954mu/ ### Whatever this is: "So you don't think the KGB or soviet intelligence during ww2 was a good thing? You realize AES needs police, army, and intelligence services right?" - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/r/RedshirtsUnite/comments/xhla0t/the_silent_protector/ioz2yc6/ ### Self-indentifies as tankie and endorses Lemmygrad: "I'm a vegan tankie, and r/communism is trash. Most of us moved to lemmygrad." - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/r/VeganForCircleJerkers/comments/vyekft/got_banned_from_rcommunism_for_calling_out_a_mod/ig41cg9/ "Oh great so this is just another anarcho-liberal anti-tankie sub." - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/user/parentis_shotgun?sort=&t=&after=t1_ir3cbm6 ### Supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine: "(...) And guess what, that communist party fully supports this invasion for genuine anti-imperialist reasons." - https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/user/parentis_shotgun?sort=&t=&after=t1_ikq8ckv --- **_The reason I'm bringing this up: Disroot donates some of the donations it gets to the FOSS projects it uses. While I have not as of right now yet donated any money to Disroot, I am definitely NOT donating in the future, if any of that money goes to Lemmy. Ideally I would like Disroot to stop using and promoting Lemmy as well._**

avg_joe commented

2024-05-30 11:43:04 +02:00

Owner

important notice upfront: this my personal opinion and i'm not speaking for disroot team.

our main criteria for services we use and support is that they are open source and well maintained. we don't and can't check if any person involved in any project we use, has a poltical attitude I like. same as in real life, I simply don't know if i'm buying a new washing machine the person designed it, what are his opinions etc. besides imo, every person has the right to have a personal perspective, opinion, etc without this entailing an evaluation of his work. again same as in real life: your boss shouldn't judge your work or decide on your salary depending on if he agrees on your political views.

besides, we as a team discussed this when we started using the service, and we don't agree with the political standpoint. But we don't promote em or support em in any way. we haven't up to know, but even if we would forward donations, we would support the development, not the political views. therefore we wouldn't have to sent money, but promote certain instances, push posts, create visibility, etc. we don't do that.

important notice upfront: this my personal opinion and i'm not speaking for disroot team. our main criteria for services we use and support is that they are open source and well maintained. we don't and can't check if any person involved in any project we use, has a poltical attitude I like. same as in real life, I simply don't know if i'm buying a new washing machine the person designed it, what are his opinions etc. besides imo, every person has the right to have a personal perspective, opinion, etc without this entailing an evaluation of his work. again same as in real life: your boss shouldn't judge your work or decide on your salary depending on if he agrees on your political views. besides, we as a team discussed this when we started using the service, and we don't agree with the political standpoint. But we don't promote em or support em in any way. we haven't up to know, but even if we would forward donations, we would support the development, not the political views. therefore we wouldn't have to sent money, but promote certain instances, push posts, create visibility, etc. we don't do that.

aylamz commented

2024-05-30 16:04:34 +02:00

Author

But we don't promote em or support em in any way

You do. By using Lemmy, Disroot is promoting it. It tells people who have at least a somewhat positive opinion of Disroot, that using Lemmy is OK. (same with everything else Disroot uses, of course)

we as a team discussed this when we started using the service

That is even worse.

we don't and can't check if any person involved in any project we use

You don't need to check every person in every project. Checking the "leadership" and/or moderation is sufficient, and not particularly difficult.

Denying that the state of China oppresses gay people, denying genocide and justifying the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not an "opinion" or "political perspective". It's straight up **fascism and bigotry**. > But we don't promote em or support em in any way You do. By using Lemmy, Disroot is promoting it. It tells people who have at least a somewhat positive opinion of Disroot, that using Lemmy is OK. (same with everything else Disroot uses, of course) > we as a team discussed this when we started using the service That is even worse. > we don't and can't check if any person involved in any project we use You don't need to check *every* person in *every* project. Checking the "leadership" and/or moderation is sufficient, and not particularly difficult.

Shadowstreik commented

2024-05-30 20:44:18 +02:00

No description provided.

> But we don't promote em or support em in any way > You do. By using Lemmy, Disroot is promoting it. It tells people who have at least a somewhat positive opinion of Disroot, that using Lemmy is OK. (same with everything else Disroot uses, of course) we as a team discussed this when we started using the service > That is even worse. In either case, not necessarily.

muppeth commented

2024-05-30 23:01:25 +02:00

Owner

@aylamz We have had a lengthy discussion about whether to use Lemmy or Kbin when we phased out discourse forum and were on lookout for replacement. Main point in the discussion has been the political aliment of the authors, and although I personally agree with you and I am not supporting in anyway shape or form the stance of some of the main developers of Lemmy, we have made a decision that at this moment Lemmy is going to be a better solution from software perspective to the platform.
Just like when we decided to go with pleroma or soapbox. Those on the other hand are connected to the opposite side of the political spectrum we are also against. However we decided it will be beneficial to the platform (later we moved to akkoma and Mangane exactly for the reasons). As @avg_joe said, we can't and shouldn't x-ray authors of every single package we happen to use and dismiss everything we are not politically align with. If we were to do so, we would be left with no software (not to mention hardware). So although I do see issue with what you wrote (being born and raised on the east side of iron curtain I experienced tankies first hand), we decided to choose for it. Because it got traction and there is possibility for more diverse involvement in the future of the Lemmy project.

@aylamz We have had a lengthy discussion about whether to use Lemmy or Kbin when we phased out discourse forum and were on lookout for replacement. Main point in the discussion has been the political aliment of the authors, and although I personally agree with you and I am not supporting in anyway shape or form the stance of some of the main developers of Lemmy, we have made a decision that at this moment Lemmy is going to be a better solution from software perspective to the platform. Just like when we decided to go with pleroma or soapbox. Those on the other hand are connected to the opposite side of the political spectrum we are also against. However we decided it will be beneficial to the platform (later we moved to akkoma and Mangane exactly for the reasons). As @avg_joe said, we can't and shouldn't x-ray authors of every single package we happen to use and dismiss everything we are not politically align with. If we were to do so, we would be left with no software (not to mention hardware). So although I do see issue with what you wrote (being born and raised on the east side of iron curtain I experienced tankies first hand), we decided to choose for it. Because it got traction and there is possibility for more diverse involvement in the future of the Lemmy project.